News-Record.com

Allen,

I must say that this is an irresponsible post on your behalf. Your point was to get across the large sum of money the Downtown Greenway will cost but you really failed to go into any detail. I don’t know the exact figure off the top of my head but a nice portion of that money will go towards transportation needs that the City already has… money that will be spent even if the Greenway isn’t built.

Are you not able to envision the scope at which the Greenway would change our city? Do you know what it would do to Murrow Blvd? I don’t mean for this to be a personal attack on your behalf, but your vision is very near sited on this topic. What may cost a nice bit upfront could provide economic benefits that this city truly needs.

Also, if you haven’t met with the “Greenway folks” yet, why would you want to tarnish the idea to your readers before you are even informed?

It's about informed choices, Allen, and "informed" is the key word. Perhaps you should figure out why "Greenway folks" was italicized in your post because the city has come out in support of the Greenway and appointed it as an official bicentennial project. You'll also find some semi in-house support here. I don't think I'd call this post "irresponsible;" however, I'd certainly call it "lacking facts." Would love to see you re-post and finding more.

Why not cut local taxes, rather than spend that money?

I've got to side with Allen on this one. Sue (Ms Action Greensboro) will no doubt pitch Melvin's plans every time and Ryan is nothing more than a waterboy for Melvin and company.

Yes, I'm making personal attacks but if you'll go back and check both their records you'll see both stand up for Jim Melvin's "grand visions" on every single occasion. (Of note: Sue's personal income is very dependent on Jim Melvin and the various Bryan Foundation nonprofits.)

The Melvin people tout development first while ignoring the problems they are contributing to solely because of their own personal greed. Greensboro can find 26 million for a park but can't find 2 million for police officers to keep their new park and the rest of Greensboro safe?

Fact is: If Greensboro were able to honestly make the claim that Greensboro is the safest and greenest city in America then we'd have to put up toll booths to slow down the "creative class" the Sues, Ryans and Melvins so desperaetly wish to attract.

Parks are fine, I wish all of downtown Greensboro was a park but Greensboro has far bigger priorities that must be addressed first.

Just Saying,

Why should we not create a Greenway that will be attractive to new businesses and residents that will increase our tax base?

Ryan

Billy,

I couldn't tell you the first thing about Melvin so your comment is way off base. I should also note that Allen's comments have now gotten you upset for absolutely no reason. There has been no mention of how much money will be public or private so we should not speculate.

The problem with your attack on my character is that I agree that crime and the size of our police department is a big issue.

Ryan

I'll ask the question here that I have discussed at JR's:

Has any cost/benefit analysis been made yet regarding this greenway project?

Specifically, I would like to see a cost per user projection, and the assumptions underlying such a study.

"Why should we not create a Greenway that will be attractive to new businesses and residents that will increase our tax base?"

And just how do we actually measure that, Ryan?

Shall we just accept at face value some numbers supporters of this project are likely to produce?

Ryan, I understand you are an avid supporter of a downtown greenway and that's fine. But the idea that such a project would increase the tax base by attracting new businesses is dubious at best.

Businesses look at "hard" factors when deciding where to place a business -- roads, infrastructure, the local workforce, incentives, tax rates, etc. Something like a park or a greenway would rank far, far down on a company's list of priorities.

Besides, doesn't Greensboro already have an outstanding parks and recreation system? It seems to me we have much greater priorities -- tax relief being at the top of the list.

While I am a supporter of the Greenway I by no means have all your answers in front of me. What I do have is the ability to have an open mind and not kill a project before it has the chance to start.

There are various aspects to the project that need to be explained before people can even judge it.

My list:

(1) tax relief
(2) Greenway
(3) Civil Rights Museum (minus Skip and Earl)
(4) Miscellaneous rathole "initiatives" for economic development, gang intervention, peace on earth, etc.

I rank the Greenway slightly above the Civil Rights museum on quality-of-life issues. It has the potential to create a vital public space in the city and to transform its "feel." Whatever the historical magnitude of the sit-ins, most people would visit the museum once and never go back. History has a difficult time integrating itself within the everyday flow of a city.

That said, the Greenway is a little bit of a pig in a poke. You can lay out the path on a map, but you can't predict how it will be used.

My list:

(1) tax relief
(2) Greenway
(3) Civil Rights Museum (minus Skip and Earl)
(4) Miscellaneous rathole "initiatives" for economic development, gang intervention, peace on earth, etc.

I rank the Greenway slightly above the Civil Rights museum on quality-of-life issues. It has the potential to create a vital public space in the city and to transform its "feel." Whatever the historical magnitude of the sit-ins, most people would visit the museum once and never go back. History has a difficult time integrating itself within the everyday flow of a city.

That said, the Greenway is a little bit of a pig in a poke. You can lay out the path on a map, but you can't predict how it will be used.

I am in our city's parks and on our walking paths 4-6 times a week, so I am a direct beneficiary of the Parks and Recreation budget. I would enjoy using the greenway. However, I do think Allen is asking the right question--especially in these tough economic times. Is this particular project worth spending $26 million?

Will this increase the number of businesses coming into Greensboro? Will this increase the number of tourists visiting Greensboro? Will this make Greensboro, in and of itself, a destination city?
.

At least we have a few thousand acres of decent parks already. I am not convinced of the economic pluses of a greenway.

By the way, where's my indoor competitive pool. I've spent so much money in Cary, Raleigh, Hillsborough and Charlotte over the past few months I feel like I oughtta be able to vote there!

Savannah's got a nice pool, Allen.

there's always the lottery. Cmon $275 million bucks!

Does anyone have any thoughts about extending the focus of the Civil Rights Museum to a Human Rights Museum? We could be inclusive of our historical Quaker and Jewish history. We could also be inclusive of our Montagnard, Hmong and Lao communities.

"What I do have is the ability to have an open mind and not kill a project before it has the chance to start."

Are you open to the thought that this project may not be the best way to spend tax dollars, and that it just might not be in ALL the citizens' best interests?

Previous comments about the greenway.

Bill Knight:

"Very soon the city council will take up the 2008-9 budget. It is time for serious budgetary belt tightening, particularly in the face of higher interest costs, spiralling fuel costs, and a spike in inflation. Over the past three years our tax rate has increased at a rate more than three times greater than the rate increase for the entire eight year preceding period. Our general fund reserve (essentially free cash) has trended downward for several years, thus lessening available unappropriated fund balances to use in the next budget cycle.

We have unfunded policing needs that must be faced: the coliseum complex has drained over $ 27 million from the city budget over the past fourteen years. The time for reordering our financial house is now. The new greenway program and possible purchase of property adjacent to the coliseum may be worthwhile pursuits, but they must be subordinated to the need to balance the books and have a solid plan for bringing the city's balance sheet back to a strong position. New budget expenditures must be viewed with healthy skepticism."

Indeed.

I can see our own Eve Carson-equivalent strolling or jogging in a carefree manner on our future Greenway, and see her attacked as it cuts through one of our more crime-ridden parts of town,

I agree with the above commenters who suggest that law enforcement is a higher priority. We need to get our policing house in order. At this time, we cannot assure the Greenway would be a safe facility.

This would be a great project for the Bryan Foundation to fund, in its entirety. Keep the taxpayers out of it.

Hmm...historical history...how did I miss that?
Seriously, finishing the museum is something we need to do. Any other ideas about how to get buy-in from the entire community?

"Imagine all the things this community could do with $26 million."

I think that a community greenway is a lovely idea and I'm not against it, but I wonder if a portion of that $26 million might be used to fund additional housing options for our homeless neighbors who are sleeping outside, like those under bridges and in the doorway outside the homeless shelter? (photos here)

Or to help fund a day center for the homeless people who crowd the downtown library and the corner of Lee and Eugene Street, and who lack access to bathrooms and showers and laundry facilities, and who need coordinated services to help them find employment, and manage mental health and addiction issues?

Assisting homeless people with housing and supportive services has been shown to reduce public spending in other areas, such as law enforcement, jail, courts, hospitals, public health, etc.

Again, I'm not against a greenway. But I'd be grateful to see some of those dollars spent on making sure that all our neighbors can stand before we make plans for where some of them will walk or run.

Peace, CM

I was off over the weekend and am just getting back.
We do plan to meet with boosters of the greenway idea soon. I am not saying it's a bad idea. I AM saying it raises a lot of questions.
The greenway supporters have made clear that they expect some taxpayer money to go to the project.
Further, it seems likely that the city (taxpayers) would be responsible for upkeep.
Parks and trails are a nice amenity.
But downtown and Greensboro needs more taxpaying development downtown. Parks and trails don't pay taxes.
If my first impressions are wrong, I'll be the first to say so.

But aren't amenities what attract taxpayers? If we want to attract more media mogul/jogger/cosmopolitan sophisticates of the Clark/Johnson type, wouldn't funding a greenway be more productive than funding a homeless program? Don't hikers, mountain bikers, and golfers pay a disproportionate share of taxes? If I were one of those greenway guys, I would find a way to introduce the phrase "creative class" into every third sentence.

"I am not saying it's a bad idea. I AM saying it raises a lot of questions."

Stop making sense, Allen.

The cheerleaders and the drum beaters won't like that.